Curse

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 23, 2010, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

but all the ranger spirits still fail?

They fail more from the nature of their effects than cast time and the like, the fact that they help or harm both friend and foe. The aspects they are useful in, they're perfectly good as they are (EoE, QZ, FS, that sort of thing).

Ugh · Feb 23, 2010, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

For those who have no primary Me or Ne:

What do you think, which profession was more crap last several years and deserved buff in PvE? And when you use heroes, do you use Necro ones or Mesmer ones?

I like how you made a complaint thread without making it seem like you were complaining. :|

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Fast Casting should work as an Expertise, lowering energy cost for MESMER skills.

Mesmers are underpowered so we should give them two primary attributes?

Fix skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

PS - While I'm all for more fairness, this bias toward "efficiency" is getting my nerves. Heck, this is a game. Try playing just for fun once in a while.

*Mesmer/Dervish/Ranger walks into DoA/ToA/almost any other elite area*
"hay gaiz! can i join ur group?? itll b fun!!"
"No," says everyone.

The end.

Moral of the story: You can't H/H everywhere and other people generally want to be as efficient as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Efficient is fun. Take a ranger and put all nature rituals on your skillbar. Then each time you fight a mob spend 5 minutes casting those spirits which.. won't do much.

Nature rituals are great when you want to screw over your own team or if you just want to be completely f*cking useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

That reminds me.

Why is it that they increased the spirit summoning capabilities of the ritualist, decreased cast times across the board, buffed levels, gave them new effects......but all the ranger spirits still fail?

Can we add Nature Rituals to the Great Big List Of Things That Fail And Need Attention? Barrage alone shouldn't be the only things rangers can do.

And they can't even barrage as well as rits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

They fail more from the nature of their effects than cast time and the like, the fact that they help or harm both friend and foe. The aspects they are useful in, they're perfectly good as they are (EoE, QZ, FS, that sort of thing).

Also, the effects revolve aroud stuff like energy denial (stuff in HM has infinite energy) and condition spreading/enhancing (lol). It's fine if they affect everything, but the effects should be something that players can use to their advantage (EoE and winter, for example).

But these are complaints for another thread.

Martin Alvito · Feb 23, 2010, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Fast Casting should work as an Expertise, lowering energy cost for MESMER skills.

Alternatively, it should decrease the recharge of MESMER skills along with casting time.

So the PvP/PvE split isn't enough for you, and you want a PvE/PvP mechanic split as well? Sounds like swatting a fly with a hammer to me.

It's absolutely true that there is nothing a Mesmer can do with standard (non-PvE-only) skills that another class cannot do better.

It does not follow from this premise that it is worth the devs' time to undertake the tricky balance problem of bringing the Mesmer up to par with other classes. Mesmers have been terrible in PvE for a long, long time. In a very real sense, if you are playing a Mesmer in PvE then you are entirely to blame for choosing to play an underpowered class.

There is a strong argument to be made that the general community's interest in not having an obscenely OP class outweighs the interest of a small but vocal minority's interest in having their Mesmer be a viable elite area PuG option. If you really want to play your Mesmer in an elite area and you are skilled enough to merit taking your play skill but gimped class over other alternatives, there are plenty of quality teams out there that will let you take your Mesmer. But it's on you to find those teams, and to develop sufficient skill to merit taking you.

For instance, we used to run a trapper in the Deep back during Factions when it was all Eles and Necros for damage. But we took the trapper because he was exceptionally good, meaning the team didn't feel the loss of an Ele much and he didn't do the stupid things that PuG eles sometimes did.

Essence Snow · Feb 23, 2010, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

In a very real sense, if you are playing a Mesmer in PvE then you are entirely to blame for choosing to play an underpowered class..

Just for sake of debate: So it should be the only PvP only class? Why even have a PvE version of this prof if you will be seen as incompetent by all other profs b/c you chose to play it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

There is a strong argument to be made that the general community's interest in not having an obscenely OP class outweighs the interest of a small but vocal minority's interest in having their Mesmer be a viable elite area PuG option. If you really want to play your Mesmer in an elite area and you are skilled enough to merit taking your play skill but gimped class over other alternatives, there are plenty of quality teams out there that will let you take your Mesmer. But it's on you to find those teams, and to develop sufficient skill to merit taking you.

For instance, we used to run a trapper in the Deep back during Factions when it was all Eles and Necros for damage. But we took the trapper because he was exceptionally good, meaning the team didn't feel the loss of an Ele much and he didn't do the stupid things that PuG eles sometimes did.

The problem here is not friend/guild/alliance group but PuGs since they have no prior knowledge of abilities. You have about the same chance to get in an elite area HM PuG as a snowball in hell. As a mesmer it is hard to even find PuGs for ZM or ZB much less elite areas.

Martin Alvito · Feb 23, 2010, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Just for sake of debate: So it should be the only PvP only class? Why even have a PvE version of this prof if you will be seen as incompetent by all other profs b/c you chose to play it.

Bad players will automatically presume you are incompetent. Good players will realize that your choice to play Mesmer is a signal that suggests you are bad but is not conclusive. Mesmer is playable but suboptimal. A "good" player that plays a lot and succeeds would therefore likely not choose to play Mesmer. But good unique snowflake builds and players do exist, and conversation is usually a better tool for figuring out whether or not a prospective PuG is going to stink than the signal sent by the class that was chosen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

The problem here is not friend/guild/alliance group but PuGs since they have no prior knowledge of abilities. You have about the same chance to get in an elite area HM PuG as a snowball in hell. As a mesmer it is hard to even find PuGs for ZM or ZB much less elite areas.

Again, you chose to play a class that cannot PuG those areas. That's a decision you made up front. It's been well established for a very long time that Mesmer is not a "good" PvE primary.

To reiterate: the implicit thesis in the argument that Mesmers need a buff is that doing so is a valuable use of the devs' time. There are some problems with that argument. The downside risk of screwing up the buff is high, and alternative uses for the devs' time exist that would positively affect more players. The second point means that it makes sense to first buff classes that people already play. The first point argues against bothering at all.

It's reasonable to suppose that the devs will get to the project of buffing Mesmer eventually, but "eventually" in modern GW terms could be a while.

rkubik · Feb 23, 2010, 02:01 AM // 02:01

I would have to say Mesmers need the most help. I play every class and consistently the mesmers have the hardest time finding a PUG for anything. I actually have two mesmers that I used to play quite a bit with but with all the skill changes and nerfs to the skills I used one became a mule and the other I just don't play much anymore because of the PUG situation. I would love for a change. Heck i don't even use her to farm anymore which is sad.

On the other hand I have no problem getting a group with my necro because they have a good deal of flexibility from MM, to hex/conditions, to support battery, to even healing. I guess there will always be a stigma with the mesmers that I am not sure can be changed unless they completely buff a few skills to make it on par with the shadow form sin. I remember when sins couldn't get a group either now every group has a ton of sins and it seems most of them are kids or people that just want to run shadow form to screw everything up.

To be honest I do not see much of a future for the mesmers as I have always looked at it as a thinking person's class and most people don't want to play with that much patience or attention especially at this stage in the game where it seems very few people actually play the game and just rely on runs.

uby · Feb 23, 2010, 02:13 AM // 02:13

I'm looking to get back in the game (PvE only) and I have always been in love with the Mesmer skillset. Unfortunately, I think I'd rather roll a N/Me for soul reaping energy benefit than Me/N for fast casting benefit and having runes for my primary attributes. Fast casting is next to useless in PvE, and mesmer skills don't have enough synergy among the various attribute skillsets that I have incentive to invest heavily into them.

The best way to fix Mesmer PvE is to either modify Fast Casting or to create significant synergies amongst the various mesmer attribute lines to encourage heavy investment of attribute points into Dom/Ill/Insp/FC.

Essence Snow · Feb 23, 2010, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Bad Again, you chose to play a class that cannot PuG those areas. That's a decision you made up front. It's been well established for a very long time that Mesmer is not a "good" PvE primary.

Some ppl choose to play mesmer b/c they have already played the other classes to boredom. Others choose to experience all aspects of a game and so play every profession. On creating my 9th char it was either mesmer or dervish. Dervs really stinking....I choose mesmer. After playing out my mesmer I created a dervish......whole other problem class. Basically I play all professions to mix it up. This breaks up the monotany (sp?) of a game that is in it's latter years.

I know there r those whom chose mesmer as their primary character. For those...I think they might have wished to read that thread on "Things you wished u knew starting out in GW" or have had a disclamer "Mesmers are about the worst class for PvE" on the charater creation screen. But, by the time you learn these things in game...chances r you have become commited to that character.
Its all basically about favortism. Having been on the short end of the stick ppl will tend to cry out for equal opportunity. Those being favored will mainly not want to share what they have become accustomed to. The world is not fair...it still doesn't mean it's right.

LazyLink · Feb 23, 2010, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

For those who have no primary Me or Ne:

What do you think, which profession was more crap last several years and deserved buff in PvE? And when you use heroes, do you use Necro ones or Mesmer ones?

I like how you ask an unbias question but then vehemently argue that the mesmer is weaker. You trick people into looking at your thread thinking it's unbias but then you push your agenda on them. This doesn't prove your point, it only pisses people off.

Martin Alvito · Feb 23, 2010, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by LazyLink

I like how you ask an unbias question but then vehemently argue that the mesmer is weaker. You trick people into looking at your thread thinking it's unbias but then you push your agenda on them. This doesn't prove your point, it only pisses people off.

It's hard to blame him given the state of the media these days. He's getting bombarded with messages suggesting the method you describe is how you make an argument.

If you want to blame someone, blame Reagan. He's the reason the Fairness Doctrine did not persist.

cellardweller · Feb 23, 2010, 05:48 AM // 05:48

I'd take a Mes hero long before I took a War,Sin, Derv or Ele - that puts them right around the middle of the pack. It has nothing to do with the strength of the classes (well except for the ele who gets boned by their lack of armour ignoring damage) and everything to do with the AI's ability to manage a skillbar, energy and position.

Owik Gall · Feb 23, 2010, 06:09 AM // 06:09

The way I see it of the reason why most ppl would say Mes instead of Necro should get buffed is because Mes demands expertise. It takes skill to use that class into full potential which can be a shut down class, given that you cast at the right times on the right target. The fall back is that the spells must concentrate on only one target and the recharges gives enough time for the target to recover, should it survive. Concept plays out in both PvE and PvP. Overall, the only ones I saw that have a problem with this are those who can't pull it off as a mes. If that's the case, than that's just poor play. One of the classes draw backs is it has less defensive skills than other classes. This may help look like the class needs a buff.

Shriketalon · Feb 23, 2010, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

The way I see it of the reason why most ppl would say Mes instead of Necro should get buffed is because Mes demands expertise. Overall, the only ones I saw that have a problem with this are those who can't pull it off as a mes.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

If skill makes a mesmer competitive, on par in high end HM areas, then demonstrations must be made. First of all, detail a build. Second, detail exactly how it is used, in what party, and how the mesmer pulls equal or greater weight than another class running a build to suit the same purpose.

In turn, you assertion will be invalid if it can be shown that another class can do the same job better, with less skill slots, less time, or with greater effect.

Handwaving away the mesmer problem with "everyone who thinks they are underpowered is unskilled" is not a valid argument. Such an assertion has to be proven, otherwise it is merely elitist folly.

Owik Gall · Feb 23, 2010, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

If skill makes a mesmer competitive, on par in high end HM areas, then demonstrations must be made. First of all, detail a build. Second, detail exactly how it is used, in what party, and how the mesmer pulls equal or greater weight than another class running a build to suit the same purpose.

In turn, you assertion will be invalid if it can be shown that another class can do the same job better, with less skill slots, less time, or with greater effect.

Handwaving away the mesmer problem with "everyone who thinks they are underpowered is unskilled" is not a valid argument. Such an assertion has to be proven, otherwise it is merely elitist folly.

In that case I got some PvP to do. Ugh... Not more of JQ, Aspen, and (most of all) Guild Battles again! (along with other PvP matches)... Sheesh. If I can, I'll come back to this once I get screen caps, build temps, and comparison examples. Right after I get some headache meds.

Shriketalon · Feb 23, 2010, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

In that case I got some PvP to do. Ugh... Not more of JQ, Aspen, and (most of all) Guild Battles again! (along with other PvP matches)... Sheesh. If I can, I'll come back to this once I get screen caps, build temps, and comparison examples. Right after I get some headache meds.

And while you are at it, please use a video camera hooked up to your speakers so we can get live feed, along with commentary people in your party who are on vent to accurately rate your mesmer's performance in real time, according to in depth, logical analysis with a double-blind team using the exact same setup, sans mesmer, running alongside.

Science and logic require commitment!

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

*Mesmer/Dervish/Ranger walks into DoA/ToA/almost any other elite area*
"hay gaiz! can i join ur group?? itll b fun!!"
"No," says everyone.

The end.

Moral of the story: You can't H/H everywhere and other people generally want to be as efficient as possible.

Ditto.

Exactly what I wanted to say. If only people started looking more for "fun" and less for "efficiency", there would be place for any profession in any group.

I never had a problem playing my Mesmer in elite areas. That's because I don't PuG and play with friends who actually have a brain.

drkn · Feb 23, 2010, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Again, you chose to play a class that cannot PuG those areas. That's a decision you made up front. It's been well established for a very long time that Mesmer is not a "good" PvE primary.

please change the manuscripts accordingly. please note that explicitly on the official wiki. please warn newcomers beforehand.
because, seriously, not every new player reads through whole guru just to pick a char. he rather takes a brief look at skills, tries to imagine them in the field and reads guides to playing xyz. and, well, a newbie has no idea that mesmers suck. seriously.

Gill Halendt · Feb 23, 2010, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

please change the manuscripts accordingly. please note that explicitly on the official wiki. please warn newcomers beforehand.
because, seriously, not every new player reads through whole guru just to pick a char. he rather takes a brief look at skills, tries to imagine them in the field and reads guides to playing xyz. and, well, a newbie has no idea that mesmers suck. seriously.

Mesmers don't suck!

When will people realize that "being subpar" ≠ "sucking"?

Also, by looking at the number of PvE Mesmers around, I guess newbies have realized that by now...

upier · Feb 23, 2010, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

When will people realize that "being subpar" ≠ "sucking"?

And when will people realize that on Guru, "being subpar" is mostly expressed with the term "to suck".

Smarty · Feb 23, 2010, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Again, you chose to play a class that cannot PuG those areas. That's a decision you made up front. It's been well established for a very long time that Mesmer is not a "good" PvE primary.

I chose a class that was deemed "harder to learn" when I started playing four years ago, not one that was deemed "not a good PvE primary". It's four years' worth of skill updates that have left the mesmer weaker than other professions which have made my main unwanted, not my initial choice of profession nor my ability to play the game.

As for the rest of your post... again, I hope your view doesn't reflect that of the devs.